Can 'o Worms...

[55starchief]

Quoting: Titsy

Just because Pontiac may (or may not) have gone there first, doesn't mean they have the monopoly on what makes a car a muscle car though...

I didnt say they had, just that they created the whole market, i can dig up the info if you like i have it in one of my pontiac books. Delorean had some amazing ideas including the rope propshaft that was used on the tempest

[Titsy]

You don't need to prove anything to me mate, but I don't think you can say that unless it's a Pontiac then it isn't a Muscle car, it's an imitation.... I think there are far more Fords an Mopars that would be recognised as Muscle cars than Pontiacs.... Calling them imitations is like saying that because the Russians went into space first, NASA are mearly imitating their space program...

[55starchief]

Quoting: Titsy

I don't think you can say that unless it's a Pontiac then it isn't a Muscle car, it's an imitation.... I think there are far more Fords an Mopars that would be recognised as Muscle cars than Pontiacs.... Calling them imitations is like saying that because the Russians went into space first, NASA are mearly imitating their space program...

Hmm now there is a thought maybe pontiac should license the muscle car name

The point is that if pontiac hadnt done it could have been a lot longer before anyone else thought about it and such great cars would not exist.

Much the same as peugot creating the 205 which in turn created a whole HOT Hatch era back in the 80's/90's

[Roadkill]

I don't agree with the list.

What about the Dodge Monaco ?

Those things are cool.

Firebirds and Camaros aren't muscle cars, IMO, no way.

[Incursus]

Quoting: Titsy

All classic muscle cars should be painted matt or satin black though...

     

[Titsy]

Quoting: 55starchief

The point is that if pontiac hadnt done it could have been a lot longer before anyone else thought about it and such great cars would not exist.

And you've made the point several times and I haven't disagreed with it....

[HardRockCamaro]

Quoting: 55starchief

Much the same as peugot creating the 205 which in turn created a whole HOT Hatch era back in the 80's/90's

I think you'll find the hot hatch era was created by VW with the MK1 Golf GTI (1977), Ford arrived on the hatch scene with the XR's (1980) and Peugeot turned up in 1984 wiht the 205GTI a full 7 years after VW.

VW were by far the first to market with a hot hatch (although other manufacturers such as Ford had fast small cars such as the RS2000 prior, but they weren't hatches) and as such they invented the hot hatch.  That doesn't mean that a VW Gold GTI is a hot hatch and an XR2i or 205GTI isn't just like a muscle car doens't have to be a Pontiac because they were first.


As for having the big 4 door car engine in the smaller lighter car, although the LT1 came from the Vette (which gets all the new developments first) it was available in the Camaro as well as the Caprice (which was full sized last time I checked).


I agree that the Camaro is a muscle car (as long as you don't buy the 6 cyl obviously), specifically the Pony car subset of the muscle car and age most certainly does not come into it.

[Fieldy]

anything compared to my girlfreinds Citroen AX seems like A muscle car to me right now

[55starchief]

Forgot about the golf GTI being first, as for the RS2000 it wasnt exactly a small car it was just a different version of the escort unlike the golf,205,xr2 which were designed as small compacts

The whole basis of a muscle car was it took the motor from a FULL SIZE car and put it in a compact. GM/FORD/MOPAR dont MAKE full sizes cars any more so there for the camaro/firebird/mustang etc arnt muscle cars. Infact i dont think any full size cars were made after the very early 70's meaning the cut off date of 72 would be right

[HardRockCamaro]

From Wikipedia:

A full-size car is a term used in North America for an automobile larger than a mid-size car, having greater than 120 ft³ (3,300 L) of interior volume.  Previously, a wheelbase greater than 2.79 metres (110 inches) was the criteria.


Current full-size cars:

Buick Lucerne
Cadillac DTS
Chevrolet Impala (Chevrolet calls it a mid-size car, and it competes primarily with other large mid-size vehicles.)
Chrysler 300
Dodge Charger
Dodge Magnum
Ford Crown Victoria
Ford Falcon
Ford Five Hundred
Lincoln Town Car
Mercury Grand Marquis



Recent full-size cars:

Buick LeSabre
Buick Park Avenue
Cadillac Deville
Chrysler 300M
Chrysler Concorde
Chrysler LHS
Dodge Intrepid
Oldsmobile Aurora
Oldsmobile Eighty Eight

[55starchief]

Quoting: HardRockCamaro

From Wikipedia:

A full-size car is a term used in North America for an automobile larger than a mid-size car, having greater than 120 ft³ (3,300 L) of interior volume. Previously, a wheelbase greater than 2.79 metres (110 inches) was the criteria.


Current full-size cars:

Buick Lucerne
Cadillac DTS
Chevrolet Impala (Chevrolet calls it a mid-size car, and it competes primarily with other large mid-size vehicles.)
Chrysler 300
Dodge Charger
Dodge Magnum
Ford Crown Victoria
Ford Falcon
Ford Five Hundred
Lincoln Town Car
Mercury Grand Marquis



Recent full-size cars:

Buick LeSabre
Buick Park Avenue
Cadillac Deville
Chrysler 300M
Chrysler Concorde
Chrysler LHS
Dodge Intrepid
Oldsmobile Aurora
Oldsmobile Eighty Eight

ok then i guess you can have the camaro as long as the motor was available in the impala

[Titsy]

Yup, in 1995 the Imparla used the LT1 engine and the 4L60e Trans...

[55starchief]

Quoting: Titsy

Yup, in 1995 the Imparla used the LT1 engine and the 4L60e Trans...

Does the maro come under the description of compact though

[Titsy]

Wikipedia have it listed as a sports car, but that it blatently wrong as it has 4 seats....

[55starchief]

Quoting: Titsy

Wikipedia have it listed as a sports car, but that it blatently wrong as it has 4 seats....

ah well sorry guys its not a compact so there for its not a muscle car

[HardRockCamaro]

From Wikipedia:

Compact car is a largely North American term denoting an automobile smaller than a mid-size car, but larger than a subcompact car, similarly recognized in much of the world as a "C-segment" (between B- and D-segment) vehicles. Compact cars usually have wheelbases between 2.54 meters (100 inches) and 2.67 metres (105 inches). The American Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) defines a "Compact" car as measuring between 100 ft³ (2800 L) and 109 ft³ (3000 L) of combined passenger and cargo volume capacity.

<snip>

the compacts had given rise to a new class called the pony car, named after the Ford Mustang, which was built on the Falcon chassis. At that time, there was a distinct difference in size between compact and full-size models, and an early definition of the compact was a vehicle with an overall length of less than 200".



"Compact cars usually have wheelbases between 2.54 meters (100 inches) and 2.67 metres (105 inches)."

3rd/4th Gen Camaro:
Wheelbase:     101.1 inches




It should be pointed out that 2 seaters (cars with only 2 designated seating positions) are of the class "2 seaters" NOT "compact car" thus the Vette is not a compact car.

[55starchief]

No problem then, so now we have a clearly set out criteria to determine a muscle car. Works for me

So titsys 4th gen is a muscle car, can you back up the 3rd gen engine in the impala

[HardRockCamaro]

2nd generation Impala (to 1985) shared the same 305ci LG4 engine and 4 speed auto as the 3rd Gen maro.

[55starchief]

So the system works, now all we need is a webpage that can do the checks automaticaly

[Pod]

Quoting: Pod

That kind of list is usually made by someone with nothing better to do, who should really get out more.

Don't make me say it again.