It arrived...

[Andy]

We think its the wrong rad because the guy at Mustang Maniac said a '67 289 should have a 20" one fitted, this one is just over 17" and has some big plates to make up the gap.

Having posted on the FMOCGB site a number of pictures have turned up with people who have the larger 20" one and one with the 24" for the big block engine. It's also only a 2 core. One member believes it actually to be a 6 cylinder radiator.

The water pump is on the list once we crack the radiator situation. I know Dave is keen on doing one thing at a time, although he's happy for opinions ultimately it comes down to his decision, although i'm happy as it means I get to work on it!

It's nice having a car you can get a spanner on and actually work and suss out how things work and why.

[Motorama]

just read through your MOCGB thread and i was wondering if you had decoded the cars tags

is it possible the car was originally a 6 pot and has had a V8 fitted but still has the smaller 6 cylinder radiator, just a thought after your comments regarding the engine possibly not being the original one. The mounts on the side of the rad do look factory, and not bodge jobs......

[Andy]

We got a VIN decode in the history of the car:

VIN: 7R01C202780

1967, San Jose CA, 2 Door Hardtop, 289 2V V8, 202,780 Unit No.

Body Tag:

65A X 2D 02E 51 0 W

2 Door hard top, Vintage Burgundy Metallic, Red Crinkle Vinyl w/ Stand interior, 2nd May 1967 D.S.O. Denver, 2.79:1 Conventional, C4 Auto

Oh and to add, Dave just said, 6 potters came with 4 stud wheels, V8's came with 5. He has a knack for spotting these things

[Motorama]

Cool that it was an V8 and also a CA car. I know the 65/66 six pots came with 4 stud axles but i'm not sure about the later cars.

Clearly had had the wrong rad installed at some point then, i've had several sixties 'stangs and never had one with a fan shroud. The standard cooling system should be plenty good enough if its all in good order

hope you get it sorted soon, looking forward to seeing it at one of the meets

[Andy]

Yeah, we've got a feeling the radiator receipt is a bit suspicious tbh. It's come in via a Serck Intertruck branch which I could only find Google results for HGV and van parts, so we're not sure whether that was such a good source for the correct part!

Yep, hopefully get the cooling system in check, then we'll be looking at making it look nice in the bay. Already seen loads of bits that could either do with respraying or chroming!

[Andy]

Something I was going to ask you Andy, seeing as I'm chief cleaner, got any recommendations for vinyl roof treatment? (it is like new, but what will keep it that way?)

Also, any treatment for chrome parts?

[Motorama]

prolly something like Armour All on the roof, and nothing too abrasive on the chrome, i use Auto Glym radiant wax on paint, chrome and glass

[philoldsmobile]

I've had great results on good condition chrome with Mur, but I wouldn't use it anywhere else...

I'd +1  the armour all on the vinyl roof..

[Andy]

Update: (Long read, sadly no pics!)

Last weekend, got on with work on the car, we had left it with the fan off after we attempted to fit the fan shroud. As yet the jury is still out on what radiator we are going to replace it with. There is the possibility for replacing the standard V8 20" one with the 24" one which was fitted to the A/C cars. Add to that the possibility of getting an ally version and we have a bit of homework to do over which will fit best and be better in the long run.

Anyway... while the fan was off on Saturday, we took the top hose off and had a look at what condition the thermostat was in. As expected, it was grubby but all see operational. Dave went and did the boiling water test and said it operated fine, while I was left in charge of de-gunking the housing and hose outlets. While waiting, i took the lower hose off and flushed the radiator through with water until it ran clean and clear, the flow seemed fairly quick but bits of crap were still visible in the tops of the cores.

We decided to see what the cooling system did when we removed the thermostat altogether (a fix Dave did on his old one). With it all bolted back together, topped the system up and checked for leaks, all good!

Dave took the car out for a test drive with me following in the van (with tools and a tow rope!), we drove the same route we took before to see if there was any change. We got to the 'half way' point off the motorway and the temp gauge was off the top end! Dave pulled into a lay by with steam spitting out of the overflow pipe. After about 10 mins standing there, not doing much waiting for it to cool down a guy over the road pops out and introduces himself. Casually says, 'oh i've got a '65 on the drive' to which i say, 'yeah, pull the other one!'

Sure enough he had a '65 289. Doing a recky, he has the same width radiator, but A LOT more cores in both directions. Also, it's a brand new radiator with fresh lovely green looking coolant. He kindly refilled our radiator and got us on our way again.

[Motorama]

i would say for it not to stay cool at motorway speeds with cold air hitting it, the problem is something other than, or in addition to the rad

[Andy]

Update from Tonight:

After Saturdays awesome road trip, something which we hadn't checked but thought would be worth while, was the timing. Got a timing gun, got it all set up and according to the markings, the car was running advanced by about 16 degrees. The manual reckons the timing should be 6 for a standard 289, so we reset that which made it quite lumpy at first, but once we reconnected the vac tube, it seemed happy.

Anyway, another test drive and it was obvious that the car had lost a fair amount of power, on kick down, but if the car was running that far advanced it could be contributing a lot to the engine temp. So we'll keep it at 6 and maybe edge it forward when we fit the new radiator, but not as far as it was.

[Andy]

Quoting: Motorama

i would say for it not to stay cool at motorway speeds with cold air hitting it, the problem is something other than, or in addition to the rad

Dave is also questioning the gearbox or the rear end. Sadly it doesn't have a tach fitted, but to do 70 it does sound like its running fast.

According to the VIN it is ment to have a standard 2.79, though Dave reckons its higher than that, or the box is fubar'd!

[Andy]

Quoting: Motorama

i would say for it not to stay cool at motorway speeds with cold air hitting it, the problem is something other than, or in addition to the rad

What would you be think of in addition? We did do a block test to check the head gaskets, but this doesn't (I don't think) rule out the possibility of them being fitted upside down...

Pulled the radiator out this morning which was fun! Am really enjoying work on this car as it's so easy to do stuff and get a spanner on. Also liking the fact it's all manual tuning with none of this fancy computer stuff!

ETA:

Engine bay minus radiator and fan:


At the bottom are the two pipes for the trans cooler, blocked these with two pencil rubbers, they make a reassure 'pop' unplugging them:


The two hoses and 4 blade fan, which might be getting upgraded to a 5 blade this afternoon:


Cleaning under and behind the radiator, little bit worried that the chassis frame might have got a lot of water in it from the lower pipe when i pulled it off:

[Motorama]

i would check the water pump as well, only a few more bolts now everything else is off

[Andy]

Quoting: Motorama

i would check the water pump as well, only a few more bolts now everything else is off

We're pretty sure the pump is doing alright, as with the thermostat out the top hose was thrashing the water out.

Update from today:

Yesterday me and Dave made a trip over to Mustang Maniac, just north of Ware. Jesus rollerskating Christ! This guy reckons he has in the region on 40 Mustangs, strewn about his property, good one, ones being rebuilt, rotten through ones, rare ones, common ones... and, in his workshop for a customer, a GT500KR... awesome.

Anyway, we picked up a new radiator, and fan to give us a fighting chance. We ended up opting for an Ally 2 row, as the bolt holes matched perfectly with the body and the fan shroud we'd previous bought. The fan was a new 5 blade replacing the not very good 4 blade.

New Ally Rad, lush bit of welding on the top:


Fitting it all together we realised the fan would interfere with the fan shroud and we needed to knock about 1/2" off the nose cone. Of course, that would be simple with it weren't for the locating boss being the same diameter as the bore 1/2" from the front. Soo, early Sunday morning my neighbours were pleased (i'm sure) to hear me turning up a new nose cone in the garage. Along with that, we need some new spacers for the studs so they didn't bottom out on the water pump.

So jigging it all together, we put the new thermostat in, sealed up the housing, attached all the hoses, bolted up the new radiator, fan and then the shroud. With the belt on the water pump loose, it allowed us to see how much clearance we had all round.

Chucked a litre of anti-freeze and coolant in and filled the rest up, made a bit of a newbie mistake though, as I topped up the system and we then ran it up... spot the obvious, with the thermostat shut, it ment the water didn't come all the way through the system and we'd only filled up half of it.

However, once we sussed that, got the car running and it now permanently sits just up from the cold mark with the thermostat open and at idle!

Complete system, finished:


Front:


Nicely covered fan, before it was a bit risky putting your arm in the bay with the engine running!:

[Motorama]

Well done, hopefully thats it sorted, a good run out will tell.

Re the timing, i always run the Caddys a few degrees advanced

[Andy]

Quoting: Motorama

Re the timing, i always run the Caddys a few degrees advanced

Good spot, we're looking at setting it again tonight or tomorrow. The books recommend 6 degrees advances, but when we put it back that far the engine really lost performance, in fact was really quite sluggish, but we kept it there to see if it was that, that made the engine run hot.

Now we're looking at putting it back where is was (roughly 15 degrees), is it more trial and error with these motors? Not too far to pink, but not too retarded to be sluggish?

[Motorama]

Quoting: Andy

is it more trial and error with these motors? Not too far to pink, but not too retarded to be sluggish?

it can be a bit like that, also depends on your ignition set up

[philoldsmobile]

the fuel we get here these days is very different to american fuel in the late 60's, so there will be a little trial and error involved..

[HardRockCamaro]

Be careful with going too far with the timing, yes our fuel is a little better but don't go mad.  It may feel much faster with a lot of advance but it'll overheat.  There was too much advance on my IROC due to the chip I had bought for it which is actually for the US market with their supposed poor fuel.  Stock chip back in and all was well.
I'd give it a couple of extra degrees and leave it at that.

[Andy]

Been reading the comments over on MOCGB, and they're saying not much more than that. Someone also raised the point about whether it has a high compression or different from stock cam in, which to be honest, we don't have a clue!

Dave is looking at putting around 10-12 degrees, see what that does, it was running at 15 fine, sounded fine, but we couldn't tell whether that would cause it to overheat, because, well it was!

Next however is the steering...

Something Dave noted that had him a little concerned but nothing more than he expected was the steering, it was all over the place. Expected of an old car, but this was a little more than that as it was vague and felt like some bushes were gone.

Our car has power assisted steering and not a power assisted steering rack and pinion, so there are a lot of linkages, but straight away we could see some ridiculous amount of play in the pitman arm bush where it joins on the drag arm.



Bit difficult to see on here, but it's the arm that immediately comes out of the steering box and looks like this...



So even though we've got the car ready to roll, we're about to start stripping something else down!

[Roadkill]

Quoting: Andy

but straight away we could see some ridiculous amount of play in the pitman arm bush where it joins on the drag arm.



Bit difficult to see on here, but it's the arm that immediately comes out of the steering box and looks like this...

I had LOADS of play when I picked up the '58 . . . . after clocking a few hundred miles I decided to have a look and see what the problem was . . . .

The large nut holding the arm on had loosened itself off completely and was only holding in place thanks to the copious amounts of 50-year-old gunge !

A quick clean-off and tighten and all was (nearly) as good as new.

[art b]

50 year old marti gunge ftw....

[Andy]

Little update from today:

Finally got around to taking the girl for a road trip to fully test out the new radiator and bits!

Before we set off, I had to tighten up the alternator belt as it hadn't been properly tensioned from the fan install. Then we set the timing up, moving it forward to 12 degrees BTDC, which is still back from where it was set originally, but it was a lot better than the 6 degrees the manual suggested.

Sitting on the drive before the off, and the temp gauge showed the thermostat opening and once opened didn't go any higher than this...


 
We did a long circuit of up a couple of junctions on the M40 and then back via country roads, at no point did the temperature go any higher than above. We were a bit worried that this ment the heater wouldn't work, but no the heaters work a charm. I also found a reason for a cold right foot that I need to do some investigating on. There's a flap on the passenger footwell that I don't know what it does.

[Motorama]

Result

That old rad must have been proper FUBAR'd!